Agenda suggestions for next week’s dev chat, August 6.
Updates from July, 2009 Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts
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Jane Wells
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Jane Wells
New IRC dev chat time: Thursdays at 9pm UTC, per poll.
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Denis de Bernardy
I’d like to re-bring the roles/caps discussion up during the next meet-up. As much as there was agreement on what there is to do, Sam did raise a very genuine point (adding just one table, for performance reasons) in the ticket.
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Jane Wells
Suggest items for dev chat agenda for July 30 dev chat. Note the day/time for dev chat may be changing in response to last week’s survey. New day/time will be posted here, on dev blog, on @wordpress twitter, and set as topic in dev channel tomorrow.
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Denis de Bernardy
So… the usual suspect raised by Hakre and myself — bug fixing + committer workflow.
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Denis de Bernardy
per Jane’s request… as in:
- we really want to look into that huge bug list before we consider any serious new features
- prioritization of what committers do, to leverage the community’s input — the less patch contributors decide it’s not worth their time to wait for their patch to get reviewed and committed (or rejected) the better
- more committers needed for the two above points (even though I understand Matt has strong opinions on this)
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Alex (Viper007Bond)
I disagree about the need for more committers. Just because some other project does something one way doesn’t mean it’s best for us. We just need more people to say yay or nay to patches/tickets.
That’s a discussion for next week though (but I’ll be missing it).
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Jeffro
Are we allowed to bring up any subject for the agenda or does it have to be within realm of development discussions? For example, a topic I was going to suggest would be a way to clean up tags from the Popular Tags block when you go to Plugins – Add New. Not sure why folks need to see the tags Plugins and then Plugin or Post then posts.
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DD32
The Theme directory had something similar done.. except it was manually normalised AFAIK (Well semi-normalized, tags were marked as aliases of others)
Maybe a soundex-type setup could be used to group certain items..
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Jane Wells
As it’s called the dev chat, we try to keep topics to development or development process stuff. The thing about cleaning up tags would be a valid topic since people would talk about how to clean it up, but from a UX perspective, though I agree that removing near-dupes is desirable, I’m not sure about it… would rather see a broader discussion about this before bringing it into dev channel. Maybe start a discussion on hackers first?
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Shane
I think we should talk about getting WordPress 3.0 into PHP 5.3.0+ min. PHP 4 is not supported anymore and we need to think about getting the code into a object based for speed and security.
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Ramoonus
i think PHP 5.2 is more realistic since most providers still run on that
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scribu
Better Meta API: Been beating it to a pulp on wp-hackers. See http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10487
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Jane Wells
Ideas forum. I’ve been cleaning out old threads and closing implemented suggestions, but need some help on the more technical suggestions as to whether they are still valid, can be done by plugin, etc. Will ask for a couple of volunteers during chat to help out over next week or two. I closed about 260 threads last night, down from 26 pages of threads to 13, so with a few helpers, should be not too much of a pain. Once it’s cleaned out and holding current Ideas for debate, will start a few upgrades to forum to make it easier to use.
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Jane Wells
Agenda for Wednesday Dev Chat today in IRC. Starts with a little housekeeping, then switches to implementation.
- Meeting day/time (change to not-Wednesday) (Jane)
- Closure 2.0 branch (Mark J)
- Meta tables (DD32)
- Edit lock (Mark J/Andrew Ozz)
- Anything left over
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Mark Jaquith
Don’t think edit lock needs discussion at the meeting. It’s tame and non-disruptive. Swap that out for the user role and capabilities discussion, which has a much bigger potential impact.
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Jane Wells
Just thought you might want to see if someone would volunteer to code the change. Will user roles/capabilities fit into h 20-30 minutes (what I’d guess we’ll have after meta tables etc.?)? Also, would it make sense to talk user roles/caps when Ryan is back on?
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Mark Jaquith
The way the edit lock works now, if you close your browser with the post open, the lock will stay in effect until it times out. Might it not be better if we shortened the edit lock time to something like 120 seconds and kept it locked via an XHR every 90 seconds that the edit screen for that post is open?
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Denis de Bernardy
That would be nice, yeah.
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Andrew Ozz
It’s currently renewed with the autosave XHR every 120 sec. Don’t think we need another AJAX specifically for the post lock, perhaps will be better to add something onbeforeunload that will remove it when the user navigates away or closes the browser (of course the “remove lock” XHR will not be sent when saving the post).
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Mark Jaquith
Yeah, that could work. Are onunload XHRs fairly reliable?
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Andrew Ozz
Will have to test that more but the browser waits until “true” is returned to proceed with the unload (it’s not a typical DOM event), so don’t think there will be a problem sending the request.
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Aaron D. Campbell
If it’s already renewed every 120 seconds, couldn’t we just set the lock to expire in 150 or 180 seconds?
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Mark Jaquith
Could do that in conjunction. I was going to suggest this as well, as a sole mechanism. But where this issue is a problem is on very active blogs with a lot of contributors. On such blogs, even with a maximum lockout of 2.5 minutes, they could run into it a lot.
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Jane Wells
Dev chat time: apparently in Europe some countries have no school on Wednesdays, and that is seen as a family day. Can we move dev chat to another day to allow non-US people time with their kids? In that vein, 5pm on the east coast also cuts into kid time, maybe we could work out a schedule so that the time changes between two time slots (same day) each week, so that no geographic location is unduly burdened in this way (or forced to get up at 5am every single week, etc).
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Denis de Bernardy
Trying to speak on behalf of fellow Europeans: Any week day works, but Wednesday does the above-outlined issues.
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DD32
Day of the week doesnt matter to me, I too didnt realise that Wednesday was special to anyone (Other than being when House used to be broadcast..)
As it is, the meeting basically got moved on my request, There was no way i’d be able to make it to it most mornings with the previous timeslot, its not 7am which is much easier for Aus east coast..
A rotating schedule could be good, But it could get a bit confusing for some as to which hour it is that week, or day even..
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Matt
Rotating defeats the purpose — people will just got to the ones most convenient.
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scribu
Ok, so thursday, then?
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Mark Jaquith
Aw, but then we’ll kill the alliteration!
Rotating will be confusing, let’s pick one time. We could use this tool to figure out what times/days work for people (be sure to choose your local timezone).
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Matt
By definition, it’ll always be happy hour somewhere.
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Jane Wells
I filled it in on whenisgood.com. We should post to dev channel over next couple of days to get more people to fill it in and/or send to hackers list.
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Peter Westwood
Filled that it, although the UI was a little confusing.
Weekday late evening BST/GMT work best for me i.e. 8 or 9pm UTC
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Jeffro
Anyday except Monday in the afternoon is good for me. I’m in eastern time zone
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Shane
I usually have Monday’/Wednesday off *or* Tuesday/Thursdays. Been a steady Monday/Wednesday recently. What ever time you guys choose just let me know. I’ll try to make it, but getting to certain meetings I will always make.
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Dan Cole
I’d like to here more about the reorganization of WordPress development and the plan to get the community involved more / make it easier for them to know about things and get involved in areas they like. When is WordPress.org go to their Profiles redone? Maybe this type of stuff word be better in a development post, rather than at the dev chat.
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Jane Wells
Agenda already up when this comment posted, can add to next week.
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Alex (Viper007Bond)
Day of the week doesn’t matter to me. Current time is nice as it’s 2PM, but +/- a few hours is fine.
Jane Wells
Post items as replies to suggest agenda items for dev chat on July 22, 2009.
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Jane Wells
Meta tables, per DD32 last week.
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Denis de Bernardy
So, RT last week: the meta tables stuff.
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Denis de Bernardy
Possibly re-discuss committer workflow with rboren (and ideally matt) around. I think the key points were made today, though.
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Jane Wells
Ryan won’t be at today’s meeting due to a family emergency. Let’s hold this until next week.
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banago
I have several suggestions – am I still in time?
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Jane Wells
Agenda already up when this comment posted, can add to next week.
Matt
Discuss change in time for meeting as per results of whenisgood.net
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Jane Wells
Already on agenda, above.
Mark Jaquith
Discuss closure of 2.0.x branch—I want to write a post on the .org blog officially announcing it and touching on some of the reasons why the branch was difficult to support in the last couple of years (mostly because the time period was so long that it made it impossible to keep up with security changes that weren’t just tweaks, but total rethinks of the way we handle certain stuff).
Explain my high level idea for reworking capabilities/roles and discuss potential shortcomings.
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Jane Wells
Sounds good.
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Denis de Bernardy
I thought it was dropped from Debian already?
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Mark Jaquith
We started the 2.0 LTS branch before it went into Debian, IIRC. The two things weren’t completely linked. Debian involvement was a royal pain in the butt and had no upsides that I could see (as much as it pains me to say that about my favorite distro).
The main problem was that the security changes going into trunk were so huge and interconnected with other stuff that merging them into 2.0 was a daunting task, because it wouldn’t just be adapting a patch, but writing completely new code to solve the problem in a way that didn’t depend on all the new stuff available in trunk. It got to the point that we had to say “this minor security issue is just not solvable in the 2.0 branch without disruptive changes” and once enough of those piled up, it seemed like a lost cause.
Five years is an eternity in this space—it was an unrealistic goal from the outset.
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Jane Wells
The blog for our Summer of Code students at http://gsoc2009wp.wordpress.com/ wasn’t allowing people to leave comments when they tried last night after dev chat. There was a discussion setting still set to require registration, but this has now been turned off, so everyone should feel free to leave feedback and/or ask questions of the students on the blog.
Jane Wells
Post items as replies to suggest agenda items for dev chat on July 15, 2009.
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DD32
Meta Tables again. I hate to bring it up, But its been raised again.
There needs to be a way to store Meta for comments, as well as meta for media (the postmeta table), as well as potentially for taxonomies (ie. more than a description, potentially computer-readable data).-
Ryan McCue
Just as long as there’s no meta for meta. That scares me.
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Denis de Bernardy
Bugs and committer workflow. Just to refresh your memory a bit, see this and the follow-ups that are in line with it:
http://wordpress.org/support/topic/269201/page/2?replies=53#post-1072405
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Denis de Bernardy
Dare I add, too, that based on the past 2 months and:
http://wpdevel.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/starting-next-week-well-be-attempting/
… things haven’t changed much?
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Jane Wells
You’re right, they haven’t changed much in the last two months. I’d guess that’s because of the “oh-crap-we-better-fix-this-right-now” issues around 2.8′s unexpected bugs. Once 2.8.1 is officially out, I’d think we could slow down enough to address some process issues and work out the wrangler/ranger/mentor stuff. I agree it should be a priority.
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Peter Westwood
User experience for comment deletion undo / trash. (http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/4529)
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Andrew Ozz
Creating an announcements mailing list that include all plugin and theme developers and using it to send information on significant core changes that are likely to affect them. It would be very low volume (1-2 emails per month) and would include by default everybody that is listed as contributor to at least one plugin or theme hosted on wordpress.org. Of course it would be open to everybody to subscribe or unsubscribe.
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Matt
I like that idea, but I think if you have something in the directory you should be required to be subscribed.
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Andrew Ozz
Yes, was thinking we can auto-add everybody listed there at the moment and add new emails as new plugins and themes are approved.
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Denis de Bernardy
Agreed. Don’t forget cases where an author abandons the idea of working with WP, though. They need to be able to unsubscribe if they decide to switch to something else.
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Matt
I saw something on PEAR today I like (I know, gasp!) and it was where certain modules were marked as abandoned and up for adoption, and they seemed to have a mechanism for adoption. Here’s an example.
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Andrew Ozz
I like it too. Perhaps prospective maintainers can introduce themselves on wp-hackers (if not already known) and sign up as plugin developers on wordpress.org, preferably after adding a patch for that plugin on the plugins trac.
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Jane Wells
+1
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Peter Westwood
It’s a great idea – would it not be better as a blog/ forum with rss2email type subscription available – you could always auto-subscribe people to the feed as email but make it a more public environment and gain from code markup from syntaxhilighter
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Jane Wells
If it was a blog/forum with discussion, then it would wind up competing with hackers list, and wouldn’t be low volume. If it’s not low-volume, people will filter it and probably miss the important announcements (hey, we’re changing an API, so you’d better read up on the changes and update your plugin asap!).
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Peter Westwood
@Jane: I wasn’t thinking of allowing on site discussion much as I would expect the email list to be broadcast – at most the discussion would be in response to announcements and may be best to just allow discussion via pingback – this at least allows the discussion to be linked to the source.
I think getting the benefits of WYSIWIG code hilighting etc that a mailing list can’t provide (without evil HTML emails) would be a good thing
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Andrew Ozz
Was thinking we would post each email here as a post too (we do that anyways) so quick questions/answers can be posted in the comments. However more in depth discussions should probably happen on wp-hackers where they will reach wider audience and ideas (preferably with basic patches or code examples) would go to track.
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Jane Wells
Worth looking at oEmbed as part of our ‘easier embeds’ feature?
Jane Wells
Agenda for today’s 2.9 dev chat:
- GSoC update (brief)
- Poll results so far
- Non-Media Features (some follow up from last week)
- ID contributors who want to take on coding specific features, individually or in teams
- ID which features need wireframes, and which (if any) are dependent on other features being finished first
- Deferring discussion of bugs and core team practices due to Ryan’s absence today
DD32 7:32 am on July 31, 2009 Permalink |
$_REQUEST slashing differing from that of $_GET / $_POST.
Whilst we’d all like to remove the allways-slashed effect of the super globals, The REQUEST super global has never been slashed.. Since the addition of REQUEST = GET+POST only, I think it’d be best to standardise it as well for core.. That is, Even if add_magic_quotes is disabled, REQUEST superglobal should still get slashed, along with the rest.. for now.. that can change in the future one day.
DD32 10:35 pm on July 31, 2009 Permalink |
Disregard this one
wordpress: markjaquith * r11760 /trunk/wp-settings.php: Be consistent about slashing _REQUEST superglobal. props dd32. fixes #10360
Jane Wells 12:38 pm on August 2, 2009 Permalink |
Adding option for private blog in 2.9 (see https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/4021 ).
Jeffro2pt0 5:35 pm on August 3, 2009 Permalink |
For this week, I’m wondering if the topic of WordPress documentation through the Codex could be discussed or perhaps next week? I’m wondering what the vision is for WordPress documentation in the future as the Codex is a mess. I’m wondering if there are alternative documentation projects ongoing or if the Codex will remain as the primary documentation source for the project.
Jane Wells 7:03 pm on August 6, 2009 Permalink |
Bigger discussion than a few minutes in dev chat, deserves a whole time slot. Also, post coming up on dev blog re the handbook project within a week or so, so it would make sense to do it then.
Dan Cole 2:14 am on August 4, 2009 Permalink |
I’d like it if we found an owner for 404 Template problem (see http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10486 ).
Jane Wells 7:11 pm on August 6, 2009 Permalink |
http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10191 is owned by Ryan, reported by Sivel.
Jane Wells 12:19 pm on August 4, 2009 Permalink |
I’m inviting the GSOC students to come in and give a little status report on their projects. Not all will make it, since it’s 2 days away and in the middle of the night for some, but as some of the stuff we’ve been talking about for 2.9 seems to keep coming back to these projects (MPTT, media albums, etc), seems like a good time for us to start evaluating if any are solid enough to be used in core (and/or as a basis for additional work intended for core). The pencils down date is next week, and they are all meant to be in final tidying mode, so we should be able to get a good sense of how they’ve turned out. Anyone interested can also check out their status updates at http://gsoc2009wp.wordpress.com.
Jeffro 7:16 am on August 5, 2009 Permalink |
I’d also like to briefly talk about the implementation of the trash status. I’ve been browsing through and checking it out and I have some feedback I’d like to bring up during the meeting.
Jane Wells 7:05 pm on August 6, 2009 Permalink |
If possible, can you bring it up first in the Trac ticket? Would like to keep dev chat to bigger issues if possible or things that are controversial and need real-time hacking out. Incremental UI improvements can generally be determined through Trac thread.
Dan Cole 11:26 pm on August 5, 2009 Permalink |
I’m anxious to get the improved roles/caps under way. This patch is a blocker for other tickets, so it’d be nice to get it out of the way if we’re still unsure about what direction to take. Denis de Bernardy noted that this should be brought up in an earlier post and I just want to make sure it makes the official list.
Jane Wells 7:05 pm on August 6, 2009 Permalink |
Trac ticket number/link?
scribu 2:59 pm on August 6, 2009 Permalink |
I would also like to propose a solution for speeding things up in trac:
Having something like karma:
People get points by submitting good patches, doing proper testing etc.
Then, only users with a certain nr. of points could mark tickets as invalid, add ‘tested’ and ‘commit’ tags etc.
Jane Wells 7:06 pm on August 6, 2009 Permalink |
I’ve been putting together a proposal for something similar tied into .org profiles and loosely joined with the Ideas forum, hoping to have it written up next week.